Veronique de Rugy is the George Gibbs Chair in Political Economy and Senior Research Fellow at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. She is also an incredible mother (just ask me (if you don't trust me, you can ask my sister)).

Juliette Sellgren 

Science is the great antidote to the poison of enthusiasm and superstition. Hi, I'm Juliet Sellgren and this is my podcast, the Great Antidote named for Adam Smith, brought to you by Liberty Fund. To learn more, visit www.AdamSmithWorks.org. Welcome back Today on November 17th, 2025. I'm excited to have a very special guest with me on the podcast. It is Veronique de Rugy, or Rugby, as some people say. She is the Gibbs Chair of Political Economy at the Mercatus Center at George Mason University. Can you guys shorten that? Just like a little kidding. And she's my mother, and we're going to talk about everything that made the podcast be and all the people who were important to the birth of the podcast, including me, including her, including a bunch of other people, and a lot of other events for the first time ever. Thank you. Yeah, so welcome to the podcast.

Thank you, Juliette.

So my first question for you is one that you've heard a lot, and that we actually came up with together, but I've never asked you: What is the most important thing that people my age should know that we don't?

A great question. So as you said, I've listened to a lot of your podcast and a lot of people have said a lot of things that I would've said otherwise. But in recent years, since it's some advice, it's an advice for younger generation, but I actually think it really works for everyone. My advice is a practical one, which is we all have wants and ambitions and one of the things that I see in myself, but also in my children, that other people, is that we often don't. We have those big ambitions and goals that we set for ourselves, and yet we don't actually work towards these goals at the level where we should. Is this appointed advice?

What is this appointed advice?

I guess my advice is this is like you have two choices in life. Either you actually kind of decide you're going to just see what life throws at you and be okay with that situation. Or if you set goals for yourself, then actually work towards these goals really with everything you have. I mean, very often I didn't do that, but actually it was more like the type of just kind of, let's see what happens and then make the best of it. But I see a lot of people, including sometimes you guys, you and your sister being in between where you have the goals, but you don't do the stuff that you need to do to achieve these goals, and then you're frustrated. And so that's kind of the worst of both worlds.

And it's okay to not, to just kind of say, I'm going to accept that I don't have what I want, if I don't want to work for it. But what's important is then you have to have that mindset. You can't be stuck in between. So that's my advice. I can give some, I mean it actually, I see it with adults, I see it. People who are unhappy, they're overweight, but then they don't want to change anything in their lives. Try to figure out. But for schools, if you want a particular school, then do what it takes to do the things that will get you in this school. If you want a particular job, if you really want to be, I don't know, a journalist or something, just actually figure out what are the steps you need to take and then really work, really work to achieve all these steps or just again, be happy with what you have. And that's another very acceptable way to live your life. And when you're in whatever job you get, you try to be the best at it, and then you see what's next and what's next and what's next. And in a way, this is what's happened to me. So that's my advice.

This is not an excuse for doing this, but I think what's difficult, and this is not going to turn into a therapy session, what's difficult about putting the effort in when you know want something is that if it doesn't work, even when you've put in the effort, it's like, damn, I just, even with all my effort, even with all my effort…

Often, okay, often with all your efforts, I don't know that it's really all your efforts. Often. And yes, sometimes actually they are goals that are not realistic. So I guess I should be saying set realistic goals. Do you remember when your sister, your sister wanted to be president?

Okay.

And maybe she will, but there are goals that are kind of like one in however millions of kids who said, I want to be president, who end up being president. Yeah. We just have what?

Well, but the thing is there's a case to be made that if she wanted it bad enough, maybe she could do it.

Can you imagine if your sister became president? 

You and I? Oh no. It would be bad. You voted for her, you voted, you voted, you voted for her.

No, it's more like politics is compromising,

But even then, let's say you could do that. At the end of the day, it's kind of up to the draw. It's based on if people like the color of shirt that you wore on the first day they met you.

It's the tie if you need to. This is why they all wear red ties.

Yeah. Power.

Or something. I dunno. Dunno if it's still, I don't know if this is still the…

But the thing is, if everyone is wearing a red tie, sure it works for a little bit, but then what's the next thing?

Yeah.

See as much as you can determine what the factors are for your success, there's some times when you just don't know. So I think it’s…

No is true. It's true. So for instance, when you guys got to college with the stuff your sister wanted to do, she wants to go into consulting. I mean there was no doubt in my mind that she needed a PhD in economics. It happens. She's really good at math and she's good in economics, but now she's in her third year. Who knows? It's unclear to me that what was required for these type of jobs is still what's required. So obviously you have to sometimes, sometimes things change. Nonetheless, I think my advice still hold, it's less about what you have to do than a mindset. If you have a goal in mind, just do your darndest to get it or just accept that whatever comes your way. Because if you're stuck constantly in the middle where you set very big ambitious goals for yourself, don't work enough with them, don't get them, and then are constantly unsatisfied, it's not going to be a fun life. I mean there's just a lot. And you've interviewed David Epstein. Range is one of the family favorite books. There is some value in all of the jobs that you do. There are just a lot of jobs you may not. And at the end of the day, down the road, you get to utilize some of the stuff you learn and jobs you didn't like and in ways that are just unexpected and actually give you leverage compared to other people. So that's my advice.

No, it's good advice. I think about him every time I'm in a situation, it can be really small. It can be like I'm trying a food that I don't love or something like that. Or I'm having a conversation which feels kind of pointless and I'm like not to use him as padding for me not exiting a conversation, I probably should, but I'm like, this conversation will inspire something when I'm doing an entirely different task and it's not going to make sense except looking back, it will. So is it that bad? And it's way more glass half full, which we know I've always struggled with. So thank you, David Epstein. If you're listening somewhere out there, but this is good advice. So let's talk podcast a little bit. I've learned a lot doing the podcast. You have been behind the scenes watching me do the podcast and you've been helpful. I mean, been helpful as an understatement. You've been a force, as always.

At the beginning. At the beginning. But what's surprising is how really quickly within a year you were actually doing this all on your own.

Yeah, I remember being worried about that. I was like, I don't think I can ever do it. And you were like, no, the time will come and you just will. And I was like, no, that's not how that works. No, that's totally how that works.

That's called growing up and learning more stuff.

And now I can think of people that I am interested in and I can ask questions…

At the beginning, there was just first I helped you with nothing. When it comes to the technical stuff, I am totally technically challenged. So youth, there was an asset and it's called YouTube. We were lucky actually, because you had talked about doing a podcast before the pandemic and I happened to have bought a microphone for you to do a podcast. At the time you were thinking, oh, it'd be good for college and stuff like this. We would do things like this. And so when the pandemic hit and everyone was trying to buy microphones and couldn't get microphones, we had one and we asked people .

We could have sold it for an enormous amount of money.

How it worked. We asked people in our network. Gave my network and people, you knew what were the best platforms and things like this and you took care of everything. But it is true that at the beginning I was helping you much more. I was first, Don Boudreaux at GMU, who you've had several times on your podcast has been really, really the godfather of this podcast.

I say he is the godfather of this podcast. Thank you Don.

Yeah. And he really kind of basically served a lot as a secretary, booking people for you, emailing people and posting about it.

It was marketing ad outreach and marketing all unto himself.

Yeah, no, it was great. So he found a lot of guests for you and eventually you found actually guests for yourself. And I'm

Trying to actually tell Tyler, Tyler Cowen in the name, it used to be Juliette’s Uncommon Knowledge. Can we talk about that for a minute?

Yeah, it was a really good, yeah, Juliette's Uncommon Knowledge.

Or was it Conversation with Juliette? No, it was Juliette’s Uncommon Knowledge and we were like, that sounds totally like a ripoff. And he was like, who cares? It's fine. Imitation is the best first step. If that's what gets you out the door, that's what gets you out the door. That's fine. And then we changed it thanks to Mark Morris.

But the thing is, at the beginning, really what was really interesting is you were so young, you taped the first episode. The day before you turned 17 was Trevor Burrus.

I was so scared.

And it was, yeah, it was the day before. So you had a lot of questions. Actually, that episode went really well.

Except I think you could hear my voice shaking the whole time.

Yeah, well, I don't dunno that we could. I actually think it went really well. But then very quickly within an episode or two, interestingly, because you were so young and it became clear that you needed to have all your questions really written down. And so that started a lot of prep, a lot of…

I learned so much, so much because it was the pandemic.

Because basically the first episode of the podcast was taped the first week of the lockdown. So many people, incredible people, Ed Glaeser, Deirdre McCloskey, Vernon Smith, who else? Matt Ridley.

Matt Ridley.

Incredible, incredible. People said yes because they were at home and they had time and you were very well prepared. It is true that Don and I just helped you a lot; at the same time you were committed. That's one of the things, right? Look, you set a goal for yourself to become good at this and you really the work and then eventually…

Yeah, and now we're here, all of that, all of the rest of high school, the whole pandemic, and then college and now.

Yeah. Do you remember when Don posted the first five or seven episodes at Cafe Hayek? And then I got contacted by Mark Morris who worked at the CGO and I had worked with Mark and he was like, is anyone producing her podcast? And it was literally the one we made. 

Literally me- pulled one all-nighter and edited five episodes and produced them and published them all in one sitting.

So then you start being produced by the CGO Center for Economic Growth, which is now the Abundance Institute. And they were like, she's just barely 17 and she's interviewing all these people. We're going to produce her. So that was a big step.

It's crazy looking back at it, that doesn't make any sense. It was like we were having this one conversation. I remember when the first question got born was born, we were…

On a Sunday night

And we were sitting at the counter and it was like, okay, I'm interviewing Don tomorrow. No, we called Don after because… Yes, that's right. We were like, if we asked you this, would this be a good idea? Would you have an answer? And he was like, ah, this would be great. But it was funny, it kind of felt like we were working on my homework or something, but it was like I wanted something special to be different because I was worried that being 17 was not different enough. And so then it was like, what can I ask that really drives the point home? And there we go. What is the most important thing? And now I've said that. I've said that probably over 300 times because that's how many episodes there are.

And you've learned, you've learned a lot of things from this. I've learned a lot of things. So then working with Mark and at the CGO, then you decided to change the name.

And he came up with the name that is with us to this day.

Yeah, it's a great name.

Naming things is really difficult. I've realized the fact that he just said, oh, I have the perfect one. What about the Great Antidote? Then reads this quote, the fact that Adam Smith or any author writes something so concisely, so perfectly that there is a soundbite that could be a name. And then on top of that, it is embedded in a sentence that has meaning that's important and that you agree with, and then that you find it. It's hard. It's kind of wild that he thought that up, but I'm forever grateful because it's kind of awesome. Except a lot of people do think the podcast is called The Great Anecdote…

Which it's not about name either, actually. No. So then there was the Liberty Fund phase that was really awesome.

With the great Amy Willis, the great Amy Willis. She became podcast mom. I think that really marked. Yeah, because by that time I was in college.

I was out of the picture. I mean, sometime I would find you some guests if you needed it, especially guests at the last really last minute. Oops. But by then you were just…

or I'd call you before an episode and be like, I'm scared.

But podcast mom, that was Amy, really. And she was like, Liberty Fund gave you a lot of opportunities, a lot of technical support.

Oh yeah. I mean…

And a lot of outside of the podcast support, right?

Oh, a hundred percent. I became more of a scholar and a thinker in the professional sense. I think I stopped being a curious high schooler and kind of learned what it would be like to have a job like that. I went to conferences and I got to go and have brainstorming sessions and I got all this fancy equipment and stickers with my podcast logo on it. And a great producer. And a great producer. Thank you, Rich. Thank you, Rich. Rich Goyette. If you ever need any producing to be done. Yeah. It's kind of crazy. For many years I had the same producer as Russ Roberts, another great guest actually.

Yes, another great guest.

And that was always crazy to me. I never really understood how that was possible, because Russ Roberts is like Russ Roberts. He introduced me to Adam Smith. How on earth have I had him on the podcast? And B, I kind of do the same thing he does for the same people. It didn't, it still doesn't really make any sense to me. Exciting. But I guess that's how life works.

That's how life works. Exactly. And maybe that's a good segue to talk about what's your favorite episode? 

It's hard. So many. This is a really difficult one. I think there are a few different buckets, and I don't really have a specific favorite. So this is relevant to today. The one I did with Don, the first one where we did bad policies people love, and we did a bunch of different buckets and did segments. And so that was an early test. So that's just close to my heart because it is funny looking back that I did that because we didn't know what it would look like.

And by the way, it's a lot of policies that people are floating around now.

Oh my goodness. The rent control, we talked about rent control. We were like, obviously this is garbage.

Yeah, price controls. Did you talk about tariffs?

Yeah, we talked about tariffs.

Minimum wage was one of them.

Talked about minimum wage, we talked about all of it. And here we are having John Cochrane combating other people, other economists at Stanford about how price controls are a bad idea because apparently that is up for debate. Again, what I just remember being like, well, obviously this is all bad. Why? And it's widely accepted among economists regardless of what other people think. So now that economists are kind of debating this, again, it's crazy. So that one will stay important and is a favorite, just kind of a cute moment. And I did it in person and I was so nervous. And there are pictures of me and Don that you took because you were my photographer. I also the David Epstein one, super important because he's just so important to our family and my intellectual.

That was a really great, I mean if you asked me, it would be like, I think the David Epstein one is fabulous. Yeah, the Scott Winship one was very good on poverty.

Oh yeah. I mean there are so many of them.

So many. That's the thing. There's so many where I was like, oh, this is so great.

I think I re-listened to the 14th Amendment one with Randy Barnett a million times because just to know that information is so helpful. 

And remember when you got your car and you got the 14th amendment plates? And we sent it to him and he was like, I can't believe I didn't think about that.

Yeah. 14th amendment forever. My license plate. Well, now I have trade-offs.

Because?

RIP 14th amendment car did not make it into this time period. But also in terms of recent episodes, I really, really

Good. They're all so great. But there's just so many.

I think the one where I really felt the most excitement recently, I mean, I just love the Judge Glock one I really, really enjoyed. I learned a lot the fact that we worry about stuff, social media, when actually physical substances don't kill us that much anymore. And that used to be the thing we worried about is crazy. That's always one of the foundations of optimism is the fact that things always get better. And this is just a very good example.

And I think it's also, it ties back to one of the answers that a lot of people gave you, which is you don't realize how much better we have it in a way that now we can worry about social media in part because we don’t, we don't even have to worry about things that used to kill you and kill you young and kill a lot of children and kill all sorts of things because that's an answer. You got a lot, a lot. Especially classical liberal like scholars. Life is good and life is so much better. And we've come such a long way.

A note on that, but first, the other one that really I loved was the Bart Wilson one, where we talk about monkeys and economics, I mean primates and economic growth. We talk about using experimental economics on different species, not in the, we test this on animals type of thing, but just see how they learn to understand better how humans differ from other species. Because how do we understand the mechanisms that cause growth and prosperity and institutions to be built if we don't understand how we understand things and how they understand things and how that's different. And that was really fascinating. And I feel like in that episode, we really built a narrative of what the human mind does, specifically how we learn and perceive the world and how that translates into tangible prosperity. And that was really cool. It was really

Cool too. Also that I loved, they were early on, Jonathan Rauch and David Boaz.

Yeah. Legends.

Yeah. It was early on. 

And I remember being so nervous in the middle of my episode with Jonathan, he was like, can I actually ask you questions? And I was like, I guess so. And he starts rapid fire asking me questions for 10 minutes. And I was so nervous. I was like, why do you care what I have to say about this? I am asking you because, and I'm going to mess up and I don't know. And now I don't know. That's a funny thought now, but it really was a good moment in history. Well, and David was just so, I don't know, direct. It's kind of an understatement. Still. He just knew what was right and would tell you. I loved it. I loved it so much. I do think I've learned that visuals are important, not like this recording of us speaking, but the advice that all of these podcast guests have given of how we are better. And knowing history is important because you realize that we're better off and just saying that economically we're better off. Look at a graph. One of the things that has made that so real is actually watching docuseries about those time periods because you see just how bad. I'm watching the John Adams docuseries, the one we tried to watch, but I got really scared when they tarred and feathered the guy in the first episode. So I've been watching it with Jack and Abigail Adams had their kids vaccinated in the time of the American Revolution. And it's disgusting. Let me tell you, vaccines have come a long way and they're way less deadly. They're way less disgusting. And I think they're just like, I have little images in my mind associated with certain phenomenon that have gotten better. And you can't really replicate that just by saying it. And so I think it's important that we know that we say it, that we talk about it. But I do think I've realized the importance of a visual to convey kind of that reality or those ideas. Unbeatable. Unbeatable. So how do you feel watching the podcast grow up?

I was not surprised. And at the same time, I was very surprised. It was just an amazing thing to see you grow. Come on your own, see your brain develop, see how you think, which is very different than me, kind of the way your brain works. See how much more than I do and so many different, no, in so many different ways. And so I would be like, because at the beginning, if you remember for maybe the first year, I often sat with you when you were recording the podcast. So I would hear with the cats at least one side of the conversation. And then after a while when you started, you just didn't need me. 

And we would text during the podcast because I would need help sometimes. That was more, do you think that this is a good question. You'd be like, well, you already asked it so it doesn't really matter.

But then I would basically listen to the podcast when it would come out and I'd be blown away about at the beginning, you would ask the questions and people would respond, and you would go to your second question. And after a while, basically you came on your own and you actually had comments about the answer that your guests had given you. And they were always clever and entrusting. And as you grow and as you went to college and you could draw from the own stuff that you'd learned and you were learning lots of things that I didn't know. And it was just amazing to see you do all of this and to come on your own. And then by the end, I would say the last two years, I mean for the most part, I didn't even know who you were going to interview. So when they, because you had Amy, and Amy the podcast mom, and then I would be like, oh my God, she's interviewing this person. This is great. And so I don't like to say I'm proud of you because it's not that I'm not extremely proud of you, but I just don't want anyone to think that I think I have anything to do with it. It's really all you. And this is kind of what has blown me away I who you become.

But the podcast owes you a lot and I owe you a lot. I'm so grateful.

At the beginning. But the person you are now, right? It's it. I am very incredibly impressed and happy. It's been a good experience.

Thank you. I don't know. I don't know. You give yourself too little credit. 

The thing is, a mother after all, is another lesson I guess for people. It's along the way. If you're actually kind of a nice and fun person, you are, a lot of people will do things for you and will help and will be contributing to your success and eager to contribute to your success. And that I'm very grateful for all the adults along the way who've actually stepped in to contribute to this effort. I mean, it's not just your guests, it's like all the people who've contributed. And there are a lot of people who've recommended your podcast, recommended you to other guests. It's been David Henderson…

He's another big one. David Henderson, a great interview.

Oh yeah. David Henderson, a great podcast.

Big podcast supporter.

Oh yeah. Big, big, big. So all of these people just kind amazing. And I mean, this is what life is like, really. It's like along the way. And as long as you recognize that you have to, you don't do it on your own and recognize the people who've helped you along the way, I think it's a good thing.

This is a good note. I have one last question to end on. What is one thing you believed at one time in your life that you later changed your position on and why?

Okay, I'll tell you. It's like there's so many things a lot, but I will tell you one thing. It's like when I was pregnant with you, I thought the baby face would be so boring. So boring. I thought, ah, I can't wait for those blood of a little human to actually become interactive and become talkative became, I thought the baby phase would be just not fun. And I was so wrong. Babies are the best. It's incredible from the beginning. Kids, I mean, they come out, they're not finished, and yet they, they're not finished. No, you guys have baked. They're baked enough to come out, but they're not finished. Right. And well, your brain will take a long time to really develop several decades, but I thought it was so fun. It was so fun being with you when you were a teeny baby that I even thought I had taken three months off. I even actually considered staying with you for a year. And then I ended up not doing it in part because I was kind of, I need to work. I need to go back to work. And also, I was a big, I mean, I like being around people and if you don't plan enough, you spend a lot of time on your own. But it is fun. I used to believe babies were not fun. And now I know that babies are super fun.

Once again, I'd like to thank my guests for their time and insight. I'd also like to thank you for listening to The Great Antidote Podcast means a lot. The Great Antidote is sound engineered by Rich Goyette. If you have any questions, any guests or topic recommendations, please feel free to reach out to me at Great antidote@libertyfund.org. Thank you.